confused about trade

[Supamand]

I'm still a little puzzled by the trade. I watched a video a dozen times and sent about 20 harvesters (setting my planet as destination) and getting no result as far as I can tell. The detail menu under diplomacy window has all my trade progress set at 0. Can someone tell me if I'm doing something wrong or if I hit a major bug?

[AntiHaze]

I'm confused too. I have a long way to go before I hit 4 billion CO. I wish there was some way of knowing what you are going to get out of a trade when you set up a route. Something along the lines of "x CO/hour" would be helpful.

[ChickenHawk07]

You can only have one ship per colony world for trade routes. That is, you can o ly set up the exact same route once. Ex: Planet X to Planet Y 1 Ship. But you can also have Planet X to Planet Z. You can't have 20 ships making the same route. Only 1 per route.

[Supamand]

What they didn't explain in tutorial video is that u actually have to fly to the other players planet and than the trade option will be available. But instead the video said "oh yeh, it's same as harvesting"... So I've been using harvesting controls to trade 0.o
Jokes on me!!!

[ChickenHawk07]

You are correct. It wasn't until another thread about trade that I learned you had to get into the other player's orbit to initiate a trade. They definitely need a lot of work on the tutorial.

[Leedot]

Ah crap.. I think I had intended to create a seperate video for 'How to setup a trade route' vs. explaining all the mechanics behind trade in 'How trade works' and so I left out that one, really important, piece of information. I'll go in and add a seperate 'How to setup a trade route' to fill in that gap.

[ChickenHawk07]

That would be great Lee! We've basically been fumbling in the dark, unless we troll the forums (like I do).

[ChickenHawk07]

On a side note: So that's YOUR voice in the videos, huh?

[Supamand]

I'm confused too. I have a long way to go before I hit 4 billion CO. I wish there was some way of knowing what you are going to get out of a trade when you set up a route. Something along the lines of "x CO/hour" would be helpful.

I think it would be awesome if that information would show up.
Because tutorial states that the longer the trip the better reward is. But it also states that for longer trips you need better ships...
One thing that tutorial did not say is if the other players planet resource balance has anything to do with the amount of resources you get, which is kinda shady because for instance RO can only be obtained from player planets that have it.

So from all of this I can assume the following equation:
CO=(distance*%factor)*(planet ore*%factor + planet RO*%factor)=value, if value > cargo capacity, then set value=cargo capacity.

Which brings us back to the point of not knowing what u get from a trade. If you set trade rout too close, you are not getting enough return. If you set the trade rout like 3 galaxies away, you will loose valuable resources and time.

If the design intent is to keep trade info secret, then we better hit the test server ;D

[AntiHaze]

So from all of this I can assume the following equation:
CO=(distance*%factor)*(planet ore*%factor + planet RO*%factor)=value, if value > cargo capacity, then set value=cargo capacity.


I'm all for formulae. We would have a better jumping-off point if we could at least observe the contents of the freighter while en route. If cargo capacity is only relevant when picking up ore while harvesting, then we can remove the "if value>cargo, then value=cargo" condition.

[Supamand]

Ok, I did a little test with approximate values...
I've tested a small harvester (250 cargo) vs regular harvester (1500 cargo).
The small harvester traded with a player 7 sectors away. This player at the time had 47k ore. The harvester collected 38 ore.
So here is the equation I came up with: 47/(38/7)=8.7

Regular harvester traded with a player 14 sectors away. This player had 175k ore at the time. The harvester collected 277 ore.
Same equation: 175/(277/14)=8.8

Is this a coincidence? Maybe.
Is it worth testing to see if this factor is the secret key to trade? Absolutely!

How can you help us test it:
Step 1: find a player you wish to trade with and write down the amount of ore he has.
Step 2: count the sector distance (remember that AI ships pick the most direct root and they can travel in diagonal).
Step 3: under your details in diplomacy menu, look up your current ore values.
Step 4: after 1 round of trade is completed, go back to details menu in the diplomacy tab and write down new values of the traded ore.
Step 5: post back on this tread and make sure to mention which ship you used.

How to estimate:
(current ore on the planet)*(distance)/8.8=value

[AntiHaze]

How to estimate:
(current ore on the planet)*(distance)/8.8=value


This can't be right for everyone. I have been trading with people for a couple days now, and I have amassed 0 CO under my progress tab.

I just checked one of them, and it had 6ku CO in stock, and was 5 sectors away. By your formula, I should be getting ~3.4CO per trip.

However, I do find the 8.7-8.8 values between the two classes of harvesters interesting. Good find.

[Supamand]

How to estimate:
(current ore on the planet)*(distance)/8.8=value


This can't be right for everyone. I have been trading with people for a couple days now, and I have amassed 0 CO under my progress tab.

I just checked one of them, and it had 6ku CO in stock, and was 5 sectors away. By your formula, I should be getting ~3.4CO per trip.

However, I do find the 8.7-8.8 values between the two classes of harvesters interesting. Good find.

Wait, u were able to check the value of CO from a trade harvester?

[Supamand]

How to estimate:
(current ore on the planet)*(distance)/8.8=value


This can't be right for everyone. I have been trading with people for a couple days now, and I have amassed 0 CO under my progress tab.

I just checked one of them, and it had 6ku CO in stock, and was 5 sectors away. By your formula, I should be getting ~3.4CO per trip.

However, I do find the 8.7-8.8 values between the two classes of harvesters interesting. Good find.

Are you sure you are trading the right way? You need to fly your ship to the other players planet first and then the trade rout option appears. If you use harvest commands, nothing will happen. (I made this mistake my self lol)

[AntiHaze]

Are you sure you are trading the right way? You need to fly your ship to the other players planet first and then the trade rout option appears. If you use harvest commands, nothing will happen. (I made this mistake my self lol)

Yeah but I only seem to get RO in trade, never CO. Can't figure out why.

[Leedot]

Ok, since you guys seem determined to sort out the formula for trade here it is. It's actually fairly complicated so hence the simplification in the tutorial. Of course ideally we'll get things in place to show you what you're getting from your trades a little more clearly so getting to the nitty gritty like this won't be so necessary.

1 trade vessel per planet per player
Trade Value = ((CargoCapacity*Distance) / 10
Trade Value cannot exceed 2x CargoCapacity,
Trade Value cannot be greater than the combined resources available of the two planets trading. If Trade Value is greater than the combined resources of the two planets then Trade Value = Planet A's Resources + Planet B's resources.
Players Counterfeiting and Contracts Management values should = their CF/CM Rank * 10.


Revised Subtotal Forumla
Player A Sub Total = ((Trade Vale / 100)*((50 - PlayerB's Counterfeighting Value) + Player A's Contracts Management Value)

Player B Sub Total = ((Trade Vale / 100)*((50 - PlayerA's Counterfeighting Value) + Player B's Contracts Management Value)

* Note, the sub total is then divided into CO and RO in the same proportion as the planet that the player is receiving resources from.


Player A Source Planet CO Percentage =
Player A Planet CO amount / ((Player A Planet CO amount + Player A Planet RO amount) / 100))

Player A Source Planet RO Percentage =
Player A Planet RO amount / ((Player A Planet CO amount + Player A Planet RO amount) / 100))

So then the amount of resources that Player B recieves from player A would then look like this:

Player B Total CO Received = (Player B Subtotal / 100) * Player A Source Planet CO Percentage.
Player B Total RO Received = (Player B Subtotal / 100) * Player A Source Planet RO Percentage.

and then you'd do the same thing for Player A but flipped.

- By limiting the total value that can be gathered in a single trip to the ships cargo capacity this also keeps trade in balance with the established planetary resource generation rates.

- By keeping the values of CO / RO traded in proportion to the values present on the respective player's planets so RO will stay relatively rare and you won't be able to get RO from a player that has no RO to trade.

[ChickenHawk07]

Wow ok. That's awesome. And yes, that was complicated. Especially after drinking a few beers...

[Supamand]

Lee this is awesome! You are the best!

So basically if you haven't trained any skills, the most efficient rout is to trade with player 20 sectors away. And as long as you maintain some set CO/RO at your planet, you will always get fully packed trade ships.

[Leedot]

Yes, though that number is a little squishy since different vessels move at different speeds so you also want to figure that in. For a Freighter the optimal distance is 20. Also, yes you'll need a good stock pile of CO / RO to maximize your return.

[Supamand]

Yes, though that number is a little squishy since different vessels move at different speeds so you also want to figure that in. For a Freighter the optimal distance is 20. Also, yes you'll need a good stock pile of CO / RO to maximize your return.

Hmm so is it the time traveled or the distance traveled?
But according to your formula, all u need is a maximum of 10k total resources between two players to teals 5000 resources per player. That is with no skills applied.

Unless I'm missing something, this equation does not actually work.
Lee could you take a second look at the equations provided? Thanks ;)

[Leedot]

It's distanced traveled, and the number 20 isn't actually squishy - I was jumbling optimal route distances with optimal trade distances. (which aren't squishy either but for whatever reason I jumbled that bit.)

Anyhow, was that the main error you were referring to or is there something else?

[Supamand]

Anyhow, was that the main error you were referring to or is there something else?

Ok I'm going to write out a total value based on your formula by using harvester with 1500 cargo;
(1500*14)/10=2100 < 2x cargo hold = each player gets 1050 resources if their total planets resource value is at least. (skills set as 0)

Now I did an actual test with the same credentials. Harvester traveled over 14 sectors with combined planet value set at ~50000 and only obtained 277 CO.

I would appreciate if you could answer few more questions:

At which point in trade does the system take in the planet information? (with the constant building, resources often fluctuate)

What constitutes 1 complete trade rout? (is it a round trip or just a trip from player A to B)

At which point do players get a trade bonus? (do players get resources simultaneously or when the ship docks at their planet?

Thanks again Lee, you input is greatly appreciated. We will build you a statue :D

[Tsagoth]

Not sure I understand the questions but:

1. At the time the trade occurs, the resources at that instant
2. A- B and the B-A leg
3. At each end. which bonus is applied depends on whose planet the ship is in orbit around

[Supamand]

Not sure I understand the questions but:

1. At the time the trade occurs, the resources at that instant
2. A- B and the B-A leg
3. At each end. which bonus is applied depends on whose planet the ship is in orbit around

Thanks Tsagoth this helps ;)
My main point was that the trade formula that Lee posted didn't work. I'm not sure if I'm wrong or not, but right now I'm running additional monitored trades. Will post results tomorrow ;)

[Supamand]

Tell me if this is correct:
Given:
Ship - harvester - 1500 cargo
Distance - 20 sectors
Contract Management Skill - 9
Other players Counterfeiting Skill - 0

Solution:

Total Value - (1500*20)/10 = 3000

Subtotal Value - (3000/100)*(50-0)+((3000/2)*1.9)) = 4350 ore which further split between CO/RO

[Leedot]

Ok, I figured out what my error was - it's Total Value: (cargo capacity * distance) / 27 not /10. I copied that information out of my original design notes but then we adjusted that value once we started testing it in game.

[Supamand]

Ok, I figured out what my error was - it's Total Value: (cargo capacity * distance) / 27 not /10. I copied that information out of my original design notes but then we adjusted that value once we started testing it in game.

Omg that's perfect! I actually just tested it with a 20 sector run and got 1105 CO. The formula spits out a 1111 CO, it's not exact but pretty damn close!

The last thing we need to settle now is the RO and CO gain. My planet has 73k CO and 2k RO, now I imagine that I should have gotten at least 1 RO based on the formula. But all I got was pure CO.

I'll test more and crunch the split formula.

PS: I was trading with a player that has no RO.

[Royce]

The last thing we need to settle now is the RO and CO gain. My planet has 73k CO and 2k RO, now I imagine that I should have gotten at least 1 RO based on the formula. But all I got was pure CO.

I'll test more and crunch the split formula.

PS: I was trading with a player that has no RO.

I'm pretty sure it's only the other players resources that affect your CO/RO split since you're receiving resources from them in trade. So if they have none to give, you get none.

[Supamand]

You are right, I just looked it over again. Ops!

Lee you are off the hook! Thanks a lot again for all your help ;)

[Cazargar]

We would have a better jumping-off point if we could at least observe the contents of the freighter while en route.
Under the ships menu > AI ships if you select a ship that has cargo it should be displayed first thing in the info box. Not sure if that's what you're looking for.

Question though: If someone shows up and wants to start a trade will it send you a conformation for said trade? Or can they just start trading and I not even realize it?

[ChickenHawk07]

I'm pretty sure if you are at peace with that person then they could just show up and start a trade route without any acceptance on your part. Hence the reason to embargo everyone you encounter until you can establish a line of communication with them.

[Leedot]

That is correct - if you're at peace with someone it's assumed they can trade with you. If you don't want someone to be able to trade set them to embargo. Setting them to war will prevent them from trading and your ships will attack them on site.

[ChickenHawk07]

Is there a reason a change was made from what the tutorial states about player relations vs what the default actually is in the game? Ie: Tutorial states Embargo is Default setting for all players and peace must be selected to trade. However in the actual game, Peace is the default setting, therefore, embargo must be selected to Not trade. I would think it should work as the tutorial explains, as the end game result is "There can be only one!", so in essence we're all out to kill one another... Eventually.

[AntiHaze]

Under the ships menu > AI ships if you select a ship that has cargo it should be displayed first thing in the info box. Not sure if that's what you're looking for.

Question though: If someone shows up and wants to start a trade will it send you a conformation for said trade? Or can they just start trading and I not even realize it?

Doesn't tell me how much ore the ship is carrying, which is a vital piece of information for assessing the efficiency of the route.

[Cazargar]

Agreed with ChickenHawk. Having to actively set a status of peace with someone would, as was mentioned, encourage communications between players. This is an MMO after all. I think the less you can do with other players without actually communicating with them the better.